What It's Like to Be a Woman in Project Management
Transcript
STEVE HENDERSHOT
This year marks the 112th official celebration of International Women’s Day, and while women professionals continue to make enormous progress, challenges remain: For example, a new report from McKinsey and LeanIn.org says that women leaders are leaving their companies at the highest rate in years—and sharply higher than the rate of departure for their male colleagues.
It’s a trend that undermines efforts for equitable representation, because right now, for every woman at the director level who gets promoted, two other women directors are leaving their organizations.
What does that mean for the project world? Let’s dig in.
NARRATOR
The world is changing fast. And every day, project professionals are turning ideas into reality—delivering value to their organizations and society as a whole. On Projectified[r], we’ll help you stay on top of the trends and see what’s ahead for The Project Economy—and your career.
STEVE HENDERSHOT
This is Projectified[r]. I’m Steve Hendershot.It’s International Women’s Day—a chance to celebrate the achievements of women around the world, and also to take stock of the unique challenges they face.
Women in the project world are leading amidst very different circumstances, depending on factors such as their region and industry, and today we want to capture as much of that range of experience as possible. So we’ve convened a panel with three very different women project leaders: Janete Faustino, who’s been with TAP Air Portugal for 16 years and is now a portfolio management leader within the airline’s operations performance team; Bharti Ochani, an electrical engineer who is now an IT project manager for Halian, an IT consulting firm based in Dubai; and Maeve O’Brien, a Chicago-based project manager for the multinational advertising firm DDB. Also joining us for the conversation is Projectified®’s own woman project leader—our producer, Hannah LaBelle.
MUSICAL TRANSITION
STEVE HENDERSHOT
So let’s kick this off with the state of the state for women project leaders. One of the interesting things about this group that I’m excited about is not just geography, but the duration of your careers is different, which kind of affects the lens through which you’ll answer some of these things.
Maeve, I know you are the shortest-tenured project leader in this group. What dynamics do you see affecting things differently for women project leaders, and has that changed at all in your time?
MAEVE O’BRIEN
I started, I say back in 2019, but looking at it now, that’s not that long ago. But when I first started, I personally saw dominantly male leaders specifically in advertising. And throughout these past couple of years—and I know I’ve only been at a few agencies in my short career so far—but I’ve started to see women leaders excel and step forward. And it’s more dominant now, which is super exciting to see women raise their hand and step forward and be in those leadership roles. And I’m excited to see how much further we can go many years down the line.
STEVE HENDERSHOT
Janete, beyond just the increase in numeric representation, have you also seen changes in terms of who is selected to lead different kinds of projects, or other signs of a different level of acceptance of women as project leaders?
JANETE FAUSTINO
I’m in the airline industry since 2007. I started in the IT department, and it was a more male department; there were some female project managers but very few leaders. As I look back until now, I think it has been improving. There’s more equity, I believe. And opportunities are emerging much more than before, especially after [the] pandemic and with remote [work], this is even more obvious. But I believe there is still a long way to go because if you see to it from a top-level organization point of view, there’s still some equity to foster. But it’s much more equilibrated than it was before.
HANNAH LABELLE
Bharti, let’s hear from you. What is the state of women in project leadership in your sector?
BHARTI OCHANI
Sure, Hannah. I started my career in 2013 as a trainee engineer. In the start when we were talking about the salary negotiation, it was normally of the idea that after a couple of years—like one to two years—the female project manager will get married, and she will resign. So it’s better not to give her higher pay as compared to the male project managers. And if I compare this 2023 with that 2013, it has emerged a lot. Right now, when I have interviewed in majority of the companies, I can see that irrespective of gender, they are talking about the skills. They are talking about the experience. They are talking about the tools on which I have worked on. So I believe there’s still a long way to go. But, considering that period and considering today, it has a 180-degree phase shift from both the environments.
STEVE HENDERSHOT
How does diversity help teams? Whether it’s a woman-led team, or other factors like different ages or skill sets—why is diversity a good thing for teams, and what benefits does it bring? Maeve, let’s start with you.
MAEVE O’BRIEN
Having a diverse team, I think that’s something that’s extremely important. Not everyone has the same opinion, right? Not everyone’s going to work the same. Not everyone’s going to have the same point of view. I think that having that dynamic and diverse set of people and personalities is something that can help excel the team toward whatever the common goal is. And you’d rather be challenged than have everyone on your team say, “Yep, yep, everyone agrees. Yeah, we’re right.” You want to be challenged. You want to see other perspectives, and you kind of need that in order to put the best work out there.
JANETE FAUSTINO
I was going to say exactly the same, so I totally agree. Diversity is a key to improvement, to make the world moving forward. Teams should be diverse in every sense: men, women, different kinds of backgrounds as we have here in the podcast. It’s good to have different inputs, or otherwise it’s just not useful to have so many people in the team.
STEVE HENDERSHOT
What’s one top skill that you’ve discovered that you needed to work in your industry that you are innately strong at, but then maybe more interestingly, as you’ve grown as a leader, something you identified as not as strong as it could be and set about improving?
BHARTI OCHANI
One is your stakeholder management. You have to connect with your stakeholders from your heart. You have to keep them onboarded. You have to monitor them closely. You have to be good at your communication, whether it’s from C-level suite or whether it’s from any of the peers. You have to connect day in, day out.Another thing is how you are closing your projects. In the IT sector, I can say [the] project manager’s job is to talk about the benefit realizations, not to support the day-to-day business [queries]. So [the] project manager has to be good in closing out the lesson learned of the previous projects and the handover to operations [team].
JANETE FAUSTINO
I agree with Bharti. I think stakeholder management is a top skill. You must have it, or everything can be jeopardized at any time of the project. So you have to always access your stakeholders and keep your team close together. And for this, I believe that communication and honesty in the sense of being genuine. You have to be genuine when you make your stakeholder management and the way you communicate.
Then you have to be accountable and a solution-oriented person. Because if you are focused on who is at fault, or why isn’t this going well or something, you can just put stones on the road instead of delivering something. So you have to be solution-oriented. You have to be a great communicator—and do it genuinely. And you have to have good stakeholder management. If you have that, I think you will have your team near to you. And it’s the team that is delivering the project, not just the project manager. We are counting on the team.
MAEVE O’BRIEN
I totally agree with everything that you both have said. On top of that, I think you have to have the ability to work with different types of personalities. Like we said previously, not everyone’s the same. Not everyone’s going to go about or work the same way. So I think that you definitely need to understand that and be aware that certain things that you do—the way you work—might not be the same as someone else on your team. I like to have those personal relationships and understanding of the people on my team. When I first started at DDB, I made a huge effort to get to know the different creatives and account and production—understanding that not everyone’s the same, and you kind of have to mold yourself a little bit to get work done.
And then my other one is a can-do and positive attitude, which I think goes hand in hand. I like to be that person that is like a stress reliever. You’re a professional. You have to get the job done, but I think that if I can relieve stress in any way just by having a conversation with my team, I think it definitely can help like lift tension and improve the atmosphere or the attitude of the team to keep moving and get the job done.
HANNAH LABELLE
We also wanted to ask about organizations—how can they better support women in the workplace? And if you have an example, could you maybe share one about how your own organization is supporting women leaders?
MAEVE O’BRIEN
I’ve only been at a few agencies in my career but, for example, at DDB, there’s something called Dinner for 20. This is where the entire leadership team takes 20 people who you will never come across in your day-to-day, take them out to dinner, and we all have an open conversation and forum. You do like musical chairs throughout the night, where you move around and get to know the different leaders at DDB. And that’s something that really helped me feel comfortable and confident. In my previous agencies, I never spoke to anybody in the leadership level. But at DDB, I will walk past the president, and she will say, “Hi, Maeve. How are you doing?” And that’s something that I think, personally for me and as a female leader/project manager, definitely grows my confidence, for sure.
BHARTI OCHANI
So I have exposure of working in power utility and insurance sector. I have seen that our HR department is more prone to introduce the daycare facilities. Our [line] managers actually nominate female project managers to conferences. If I can consider when I was working in power utility sector, I was the only female who was nominated to attend one of the leading conferences in Middle East.
Another thing that I have experienced is that people are giving the trainings to the female project managers so that they can grow towards the leadership [role]. They can be part of the board [of] directors.
HANNAH LABELLE
Janete, did you have anything you wanted to add?
JANETE FAUSTINO
Regarding organizations, I believe that the type of organization that you’re into influences a lot of what happens in a project. In my case, almost all employees, we are on a campus, and it’s very easy to communicate with each other. And our leadership team is very approachable. So I’m lucky to easily have access to interact in every direction and every level in the organization.
I think flexibility and remote [work], it’s something that can support women and I think men in the organizations, and it can help to improve the performance. So if everything is flexible, I think it will bring more efficiency into the organization. And if the channels are open to communicate and we have a good atmosphere, it will help a lot.
I think it’s important for the organization to keep monitoring if there is equity and the type of opportunities that are given. We are lucky to have a lot of women leaders in our organization, and we have a great family support, especially for those who have little kids. We have a nursery and kindergarten in the campus until 5 years old that never closes. So this helps a lot because usually, I’m not worried about having to pick at this moment or not my kid at the kindergarten. So I think infrastructure and flexibility, it’s key to women’s support.
STEVE HENDERSHOT
Okay—now, it’s time for Hannah and me to stop talking and to hand the reins to our guests. What questions do you have for one another?
BHARTI OCHANI
So Maeve, Janete, I just want to understand from you what exactly [is] that one thing which keeps you going? Every night, we receive a couple of emails, whether it’s escalation, whether it’s issues. And the next morning, we have [to do] a very challenging job. Every day, we are facing with different kind of issues to sort it out, whether it’s related to team, whether it’s related to the management, whether it’s related to the client, whether it’s related to your own personal life. So what exactly [is] that thing that keeps you going in your project management journey?
JANETE FAUSTINO
I think it’s passion. I’m passionate about the profession, and the industry, and the company where I work. I think that’s why I’m still here. But I think project management is so into me right now that I use it for everything without thinking. One of my university teachers told me that if I don’t believe in something, she knew that I would quit, or I would leave it. So I have to believe to be in it or I’ll just disconnect. The passion for the profession, and the industry, and the company, in this case, speaks louder.
When I get that email or something, of course, there are situations that you get upset at. But, at the end, there’s always a solution. And if you just have a good relationship with your colleagues, with your stakeholders and your team, everything has a solution. So I think positive attitudes, passion for the profession and where you’re working, and a good network, but a genuine one, genuine relationships. So I think that’s the thing that keeps me moving. Also to be a good example for my two daughters that I’m very close to. And to have fun in the ride. To complement also Maeve’s perspective, I think humor and to have fun with it, it’s key to face everything.
MAEVE O’BRIEN
Janete, you took the words right out of my mouth. On top of that, some of the best advice that I got from one of my mentors at my last agency was that your job is not your life. I’ve seen a handful of people throughout my career [where] their job is their everything. And I’ve actually had conversations with those people, and I’ve seen how much people can struggle when they make their job their life. And that’s something that I carry with me all the time because I like to do my job the best I possibly can. I want to be the best I possibly can be, and sometimes, there’s a difficulty separating your job from your outside life. But I think that being able to disconnect, like you said, Janete, and be able to separate. My friends and my family keep me positive and keep me moving. Throughout the work week, you’re working hard to get the job done, but then I like to make plans over the weekend. And that’s something I get to look forward to. It keeps me positive, even though working is not fun all the time. But I think as long as you accept the realities and understand that at the end of the day, you’re not working 24 hours out of the day.
BHARTI OCHANI
Thank you, Maeve. Thank you, Janete.
MAEVE O’BRIEN
I have a question: What is the end goal for you two? I’m just curious because I’ve only been a project manager for a couple years now and definitely am very new. You might be at your goal now, but if not, what is your goal? And how do you see yourself getting there?
BHARTI OCHANI
In my entire career, I had the opportunity to move to multiple sectors. What I have realized is that my ultimate goal is to keep the relations. For example, I have moved to UAE [United Arab Emirates]. Still, I am connecting with those old employees in Pakistan. In UAE, when I move to one company to another company, I keep the relations. I keep talking with people. So whenever in my career I want to get the guidance from my old employees, old colleagues, they’re always there for me.
The end goal that I am foreseeing in my longer run is how I can be good in storytelling. Because at the end of the day, I want my journey to be communicated, to be cascaded to my kids as a story, not just, “I got the project. I have done this. I have done that.” No. How I can convert nine years of professional journey in a story so that whoever is listening to me connects the dot—“Yeah, in that particular aspect, I’m doing this mistake. Maybe I can use Bharti’s lesson learned, and it will improve my results.”
JANETE FAUSTINO
I agree also with you, Bharti. For me, it’s very important to keep the relations also. I think that’s a key. And to have a good team spirit and to deliver and to learn in every step of the way. So in my case, if I feel that I’m not learning, I know that my mind will unconsciously start to search for another project or another challenge in the way. So at the end, my goal is to keep the good relations, to have a good challenge, to deliver and to have a good spirit and to enjoy the ride. And to have something to teach to others. That’s also very important, to teach something at the end.
HANNAH LABELLE
The last question we want to end on is: What is your top piece of advice that you would give to another woman project leader, whether she is just starting out her career or if she is continuing to grow in her career and looking to take next steps?
MAEVE O’BRIEN
The best advice that I ever received from somebody in a leadership role was to maintain the relationships you had. Looking at the high turnover rate that is happening and the layoffs that are happening, you definitely want to keep those connections throughout your career. I still am very good friends with a lot of my ex-colleagues at my last couple of agencies. I’ve helped a few of them get jobs after being laid off, and you never know when that could happen to you. You never know when you’re going to be put in a bind and put in a situation where you’re left without a job and you don’t know what to do, and you’ll lean on those people that you’ve met along the way to kind of help you to move forward and just be better.
BHARTI OCHANI
Thank you, Maeve. For the new, carrier-oriented individuals or the one who wants to grow in the leadership role, you must know how you want to carry yourself, how you want to lead your path. You should be in your driving seat of your life. Nobody telling you that “Do this. Do that. Do that particular thing in that particular way.” No. You should know how to lead your path.
Be clear in your thought process, what you actually want to do. I understand at times it’s very difficult for us to identify what is right for us, then you can take the guidance of a mentor. And I believe a mentor is a very good supporting tool to give you that clear picture in your mind.
As Maeve has mentioned, also be good at networking. Don’t just sit with those people you already know. Whenever we visit any conference, I have seen that we always prefer to sit with those individuals who are known to us; try to sit with those individuals who are unknown to you. This way you can network with lots of different diverse people. You will learn new things, new skills.
JANETE FAUSTINO
I totally agree with Maeve and Bharti, for networking and relationships and keep learning. I think my advice would be just to keep it simple, genuine, and keep learning because the world is constantly changing. And what is the reality that we have today, it will be much different in 10, 15 years. So it’s important to constantly adapt, to be open-minded, to keep good and genuine relationships, and to learn every step of the way.
HANNAH LABELLE
Fantastic. Thank you everyone for a wonderful conversation today.
NARRATOR
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