Mentor and Mentee: Learning from One Another

There’s a generational shift in the workforce—and the newest members are bringing new ideas to mentorship. One big idea: reciprocal mentoring, where mentors and mentees learn from each other.

Our joint discussion with a mentor and mentee reveals the shared benefits of their experience. The conversation features Nigel Smith, PMP, senior enterprise software project manager at Sitetracker in Birmingham, United Kingdom, and Joy Simiyu, PMP, a project coordinator at Save the Children International in London.

They reveal strategies for discussing and setting career goals, the biggest lessons they’ve learned from one another, and how those learnings have helped advance their careers. Plus, they explain why project professionals should consider mentorship.

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
There’s a generational shift happening in the workforce—and mentorship must evolve with it. With World Youth Skills Day coming up on 15 July, it’s a great opportunity to not only celebrate the contributions of young project professionals but also explore how rethinking the mentor and mentee relationship can make a big career difference—for everyone. Today, we’re focusing on reciprocal mentorship—and hearing how knowledge sharing can go both ways.

In today’s fast-paced and complex business landscape, project professionals lead the way, delivering value while tackling critical challenges and embracing innovative ways of working. On Projectified^®, we bring you insights from the project management community to help you thrive in this evolving world of work through real-world stories and strategies, inspiring you to advance your career and make a positive impact.

This is Projectified. I’m Steve Hendershot.

A good mentor can accelerate the learning curve for young project professionals. Having someone to point you in the right direction or to empathize with early-career challenges can be a lifeline when you’re starting out. And professional mentorship is a hot topic for the newest members of the workforce: According to a 2023 Adobe survey, 83% of Gen Zers say that a professional mentor is crucial to their career development.

But Gen Z also views knowledge sharing as a two-way street, with 89% from that same Adobe survey saying they’re comfortable giving feedback to peers and colleagues. This circular mentoring—where both parties have something to offer—is becoming the norm. And today we look inside a modern mentoring relationship: How does it work? And what value does it create?

PMI knows how big of an impact mentorship can have. Visit PMI.org/podcast and click on the transcript for this episode for more resources.

And before we hear from today’s guests: If you enjoy Projectified, please leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. Your feedback helps us keep making this show.

Now, let’s go to our mentorship conversation. Nigel Smith is a senior enterprise software project manager at Sitetracker in Birmingham in the United Kingdom. He mentors Joy Simiyu, a project coordinator at the nonprofit Save the Children International in London.

MUSICAL TRANSITION

Mentor and mentee relationship: How Nigel and Joy became mentor and mentee

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
Nigel and Joy, thank you for joining us. Today is all about reciprocal mentoring, and I want to start at the beginning of your mentorship. How did you two connect and start your mentoring journey?

NIGEL SMITH 
I met Joy through the Project Management Institute UK Chapter. We were part of the same mentoring program and also part of the same Toastmasters public speaking and leadership club. And, fundamentally, we’re both on a similar journey to get to the best version of ourselves, shall we say.

So the way it started out, at PMI UK, you’re mixed and matched, in a sense, as part of the process that’s undertaken for both mentees and mentors. And we’re put together as a possible pairing. And, of course, you have to have that chemistry call upfront to make sure that you can get that rapport and connection with the person that you’re working with. Both parties have to bring something to the relationship. We went through a contractual process, which is also very good for setting boundaries in mentoring, had that initial conversation, and it was clear from that that there’s something that I could work with in terms of helping and assisting Joy and also to get some benefits for myself in that process.

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
Joy, did you have any experiences with mentors before being paired with Nigel? 

JOY SIMIYU 
Relationships I had before this, which I considered mentorship, were quite informal and not necessarily the right format that a formal mentorship relationship should be. So I’d say with Nigel, this was my first-ever formal mentorship. I was in certain relationships that I considered mentorship, but I figured either we were not reaching our desired objectives or we just didn’t have structure, or more importantly, both parties involved never had [a] clear understanding of what mentorship really is. So that’s why I decided to join this mentorship and coaching training. Because, one, I wanted to really understand, what is mentorship? Am I doing the right thing? Am I on the right path? And through that, then I would be able to now choose a good mentor, have clear objectives, and actually both parties can reap exactly what they want because both of us are on the same page and understand why exactly we’re here.

Strategies for creating career goals

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
What is that structure? What was the contractual portion of PMI’s arrangement, and why are those things useful?

JOY SIMIYU 
I’d say, broadly, structure in anything is very good because, one, it helps you stay on course, it helps you reflect on your goals and it helps you achieve your goals. So first it was in terms of timeline. I would realize maybe I start this mentorship with this particular party, but then two weeks down the line, three months down the line, we don’t talk and it just vanishes in thin air. During PMI training, you have to set clear timelines with regular meetings or cadence, however you like. So this makes sure that you’re not just ghosting each other and, should you want to end, there’s a formal process of ending it. So you are both aware and have clarity and set expectations as well. Having this structure in terms of a contract helps you manage your timeline, expectation, commitment, understanding as well, intentionality. And this makes sure that both parties, again, actually get the most out of this relationship that would not have been achieved in this other informal mentorship journey that you just go in without any structure.

STEVE HENDERSHOT
So that’s the macro structure. Was there any external guidance in terms of micro: what you should do with a conversation, what beats that should hit, “We should just discuss …,” and so forth?

JOY SIMIYU 
There were some leading questions provided that would help the mentor to keep prompting the mentee. So the mentee would discover certain things on their own. Because the purpose of the mentorship is not to tell you what to do, rather than to guide you with leading questions so you can discover yourself and find exactly what you want in the course of the relationship. So they would provide us with questions [and] with example scenarios that would help both parties in the course of the relationship.

NIGEL SMITH 
And just to add to that as well, Steve, I mean generally speaking, we use the ubiquitous GROW model.

So the G represents setting the goal, and that was always something that Joy would do because fundamentally it’s her agenda in the meeting. And that’s where I would sort of talk about the big “why” questions in terms of the goal, the ambition, what it feels like, what do you want to achieve, where do you think you are. And we’d move then into the R part, which is the reality phase: What have you done up till this point? And what’s missing, maybe? And then the O portion is for options, which is, well, what could you do to get from point A to point B? And then the final bit, the W, which is the will and the way forward, is really the action-planning and -setting steps, which is what are you going to do next? How are you going to hold yourself accountable?

The most important point of all of that process, even through the curious questionings, the listening, and the replaying and summarizing back, was that the whole process was really owned by Joy. It was her agenda in terms of what she wanted to talk about. I wasn’t there in a solutioning capacity, even though I probably had some advice I could share. What I really wanted to do was to unlock the latent potential from within Joy to try and find those answers to her own issues and problems for herself and maybe only guide when it was absolutely necessary.

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
So let me take that and go back to the sort of chemistry validation that you mentioned before. How did you know that you were right for one another, especially if it’s not about discerning that Nigel has a bunch of right answers that Joy can lay out and follow to advance her life or career? If it’s more about conversational dynamic, things like that, how did you suss that out? What were you looking for?

NIGEL SMITH 
Well, it’s really interesting you say that, Steve. Because actually Joy and I have never met, so it’s all completely virtual, but you get some sense of intuition when you are talking with someone, even across a virtual platform. I just asked outline questions at the start, and I sort of gauge those responses as someone that’s got some commitments, got some desire, some passion. I could see a little bit of Joy in myself, in a sense that we’d sort of tread in very similar paths. And so there was that sort of connection through familiarity, if you will, and I felt that she was someone that I could work with.

And of course, through the first of those mentoring sessions, when Joy started coming back with some results, I knew that she was very focused on goals. She was actually taking it very seriously, making the most of the deliverables and taking action and making change for herself. She was helping herself to get to the goal she wanted. And I was just being a facilitator to that particular process. So for me, that’s how I sort of cemented that rapport and connection. And fundamentally, at the bottom layer of that was trust in the relationship as well.

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
You’ve been a mentor and mentee for about six months at this point. Your first meetings started with more templated questions. How have your calls changed over that time?

JOY SIMIYU 
Right at the beginning, just like any other new relationship, you’d still be working on setting the foundations of trust, again, setting expectations. I’d say Nigel has been very kind and graceful throughout this period because right from the beginning up until now, I can tell that the relationship is growing bigger and better in the sense that there’s more trust, and the commitment level has also increased. And my goals are also being achieved, which is a very good sign of this six-month period. 

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
What were you looking to achieve in terms of goals? Can you give us an example?

JOY SIMIYU 
One of the goals that I was very keen to achieve is enhanced storytelling and confident public speaking. When we started this mentorship program, I was confident, but not to the certain level that I wanted to be. Perhaps we could compare it with “40” and “60.” So when we started, I could say I was at 40, and through regular calls and check-ins with Nigel, through the feedback he would give me when it comes to perhaps tonal variation while I’m speaking or use of body language, or verbal cues, grammar, all these key aspects when it comes to storytelling, all through the six months, he would regularly give me feedback on how to improve. And now as I speak, I am at the level which is now 60, where I can confidently do great storytelling. I don’t know if this podcast is a good testimonial.

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
You’re on the hot seat now and doing a wonderful job.

JOY SIMIYU 
Yeah, all thanks to Nigel. So I would say this improvement is attributed to the commitment that’s growing day by day for the six months, the grace and kindness and understanding and, most importantly, active listening that Nigel has been doing all these six months. Just listening to me, both what I’m saying [and] what I’m not saying.

NIGEL SMITH 
I think Joy’s selling herself a little bit short to say that she’s just at 60 at the moment. Even if 100 is the target, we tend to be a little hard on ourselves. I’ve certainly seen the improvements in Joy over the past six months. And that’s pretty much because she learns by doing. She jumps in. She takes those actions to move herself forward. She’s taking responsibility for what she does. She’s taking responsibility for setting her goals. She’s taking responsibility for understanding where she is now in that process. She’s responsible for choosing the options moving forward.

Lessons learned: Taking skills gained from mentoring sessions into project management careers

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
That’s great. So, Joy, can you share an example of taking feedback from your mentoring and putting that into practice in your work? 

JOY SIMIYU 
One key example is how Nigel is very intentional when giving me feedback. First of all, Nigel—and I’m going to quote you—you usually say, “Feedback is food for champions.” And as long as I’m taking in feedback from you, then I’m a champion. Yay.

So Nigel gives me feedback in the sandwich method where you start with what is great. Then, right in the middle, you say what could be improved or what could have been done better. And then right at the bottom of the sandwich, or the last point you give while giving feedback, is, again, finishing with something great that has been done.

This form of feedback has really helped me in this mentorship journey, and I’ve applied the same feedback method to my line of work as a project coordinator. Just the other day during one of our governance calls, I was given a chance to be an observer and give feedback after the meeting. And I used this sandwich method, and one of my colleagues came back and told me, “Wow, everyone loved how you gave your feedback. You were concise, you were very positive, you highlighted areas of improvement. But it came out with a lot of encouragement and from a very great positive point of view, and these people took it in well and hopefully next time they’re going to improve.” And I just kept telling them, “This is something I learned from someone who’s helped me in this journey of mentorship.”

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
We just heard some of the skills Joy has learned. Now let’s go to you, Nigel. What have you gained from your experience as a mentor? 

NIGEL SMITH 
Taking myself back a bit and just listening—not trying to solution for Joy, not trying to give a direct advice, but just soft guidance. But I think the biggest takeaway has been true, active or deep listening. And what I mean by that is being quiet for like 80% of the conversation, which I can tell you is incredibly difficult because I think it’s like Stephen Covey once said, [that] nobody “listens with the intent to understand. They listen with the intent to reply.” Certainly, in the early part of my career, I was very much like that. And I think what mentoring has taught me is to sit back, let the other person take responsibility, take control. You are there to listen, to summarize and replay back and just ask curious, insightful questions, which enables that other individual, Joy in this instance of course, to seek out their own solutions for themselves. And that for me has been quite an eye-opening experience. Clearly, I mentored people before Joy, but certainly, through this relationship that we’ve had, it’s just brought that point home to me even more [that] sometimes you have to talk less to know more. 

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
How do you balance that active listening with making sure that you are finding opportunities to coach or advise? You might have an idea, but Joy or other mentees are taking ownership and setting the agenda. There’s a dance there, and I’d love to hear how you approach it.

NIGEL SMITH 
Really great question. As I mentioned before, proper listening, active listening or deep listening, was actually something I struggled with. I thought I was a great listener until I realized that I wasn’t. And I had to actually be present. Clear my mind of any distractions or other things. And the other really important thing that I learned in that process was to ask very simple questions. Not multiheaded questions, so that by the time you got to the last question, you can’t remember what the first one actually was. But it was all about asking the question and leaving a pause, a very purposeful pause so that question could be sort of embedded, and not carrying on talking. And that was really difficult for me as well. So I’ve learned a lot about myself in this process. You’ve got to let the other person speak, and then I have to be totally present for their answers because their answers will inform the next questions that I asked.

And then the other great learning point that I’ve had is to use the language and the words that they have used. So I’m not putting my own spin or my own opinion on what she said. I’m actually repeating the words that she said. And when that happens, people really do feel as though you’re giving them genuinely the time of day. It’s an incredibly powerful part of that mentoring relationship.

The benefits of a mentor and mentee relationship

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
Each of you learning from the other really speaks to this reciprocal model of mentoring. How is this style beneficial compared to the more top-down, one-way street version of old?

NIGEL SMITH 
Well, I think that one-way version that you just referred to, Steve, is probably not relevant anymore. I mean, fundamentally, mentoring is about someone who’s been there, seen it, done it all, and probably got the T-shirts. And it’s about sort of supporting others in their professional journey. On the reciprocal part of it, I talked earlier about some of the benefits that I’ve certainly got through the relationship with Joy, but the one point I’d also like to make is that, at times, I also need to be a mentee myself and get mentored by somebody else. I’m not sort of “just a mentor” and that’s all I will do because there are certain things that I need to improve on. I do need a mentor myself to keep myself honest, to keep myself accountable. So I think it’s very healthy to seek out those that have those skills and attributes that you want and to strike [up] conversations with them.

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
And then, Joy, how about you? How do you think about reciprocal mentoring in today’s project world? 

JOY SIMIYU 
I believe the reciprocal mentorship is very, very key, especially in this day and age. For example, rather in the traditional mentorship situation, when you tell someone you have a mentor, people tend to think that it’s someone older or who has certain experience in the field. And normally it would only be one-sided. But now in this day and age where we have stuff like groundbreaking technology coming up such as AI, work such as agile, I’d say reciprocal mentorship is very key because while you are getting to learn a few things from this mentor of yours, perhaps now you’ve come in, you’re using ChatGPT, AI and all this, and they could benefit [from learning about] that from you. So I think people should change their mindset from [the] traditional way—it’s just one-sided—and have a different mindset in the sense that while I can benefit from you, there’s something I have [that] I can also bring to the table. So both of us are in a mutual[ly] beneficial relationship.

Why project professionals should consider mentorship—as a mentor or mentee

STEVE HENDERSHOT 
That’s great. Now let’s wrap this up with one more question: Why do you think listeners should consider pursuing mentorship, either as a mentor or a mentee?

NIGEL SMITH 
I think if people are on a journey of personal development to become the best version of yourself, then it’s the most obvious choice because you are seeking that guidance and support from someone who’s been there, but you are bringing to the table your ambition and your goal. And the combination of the two can get you to where you want to be or very close to it. But I think we all have to remember it’s pretty much about the journey rather than the destination. It’s what you learn along the way. We’re all here for personal growth, to become better than we are today and avoid the comparison with others. Only the comparison from [the] previous version of yourself. So for me, it’s all driven by how serious are you about your own personal developments.

JOY SIMIYU 
I tend to think, as a young professional, you are entering into the industry, you don’t know what’s going on. You don’t know what you want to end up doing. Finding a mentor helps you to gain a sense of direction, and it helps you have clarity on a few things that you wouldn’t have by not connecting with this person who maybe has experience in this field or has done what you would like to do in the near future. So I’d say go for it. 

STEVE HENDERSHOT 

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